Re: Facilitators calling sessions.
Thanks Michael. It took me a few attempts to try and fully understand what you mean.
My question now is what exactly is a "Space Invader", and how does a space invader behave that's detrimental?
I'm imagining that if a facilitator went around somehow interfering in other people's sessions and trying to control and direct proceedings and outcomes, then that would clearly be 'invading' space. However, if a facilitator called their own session and had their own space, how is that invading? I understand the risk of not being fully present, but isn't that most important for when the facilitator is facilitating, i.e. during opening and closing circles, and not so much during the breakout sessions, especially if in OS the facilitator is 'allowed' to disappear and even put their feet up.
So, is a session called by a facilitator in a far off corner or in a separate room not essentially disappearing? What's the difference and more importantly, what's the actual crux? What exactly is it that makes it matter or not.
Many thanks.
Isaac
From: Michael M Pannwitz mmpannwitz@posteo.de
Sent: 06 December 2024 17:30
To: isaac a isaac48@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [OSList] Facilitators calling sessions.
Facilitators that turn into space invadors can not hold time and space for the unfolding of the forces of selforganization, and are not able to even approach the simple but tough requirement to be fully present and at the same time be invisible.
Following this, your belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions is not only your belief.
And don't forget, we facilitators get paid for our intervention to do nothing.
Greetings from Berlin
mmp
Am 06.12.2024 um 18:00 schrieb isaac a via OSList:
Hi all,
I seem to have the belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions.
What's the OS etiquette around this, and why?
I can only think that it's either; to have a separation of the facilitator's 'leader' role, from the attendees' non-hierarchical status (in the spirit of OS), or by not taking up potentially valuable breakout sessions, it's to leave more opportunities for attendees to be able to have sessions.
I'd love to hear your views on this.
Thank you!
Isaac
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.orgmailto:everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
+49 30 7728000 mmpannwitz@posteo.demailto:mmpannwitz@posteo.de
See the Open Space World Map with 535
Open Space Workers living in 81 countries
and active in 145 countries worldwide:
www.openspaceworldmap.orghttp://www.openspaceworldmap.org
Some random Sunday thoughts below in purple...
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 at 13:11, isaac a via OSList everyone@oslist.org wrote:
I will be back in the UK soon and look forward to catching up Isaac!
Thanks Michael. It took me a few attempts to try and fully understand what
you mean.
My question now is what exactly is a "Space Invader", and how does a space
invader behave that's detrimental?
For me a space invader is someone who is acting in a way that is closing
down space for others, stoping them making choices, trying to exert their
control on others. E.g. Once in an OST setting on the morning of day 02, a
participant got up, took the mic, said we can stop this process now because
they have found how all of this is connected, and now they will tell all of
us what the new plan is... so I as the facilitator said that sounds like a
great session, why don't you post it, and maybe everyone will join you, or
maybe there will be other sessions, the person said no, everyone now has to
follow his plan, and so there we were both holding the mic looking at each
other...
I'm imagining that if a facilitator went around somehow interfering in
other people's sessions and trying to control and direct proceedings and
outcomes, then that would clearly be 'invading' space. However, if a
facilitator called their own session and had their own space, how is that
invading?
I think I would echo what everyone else said, it's very contextual. When I
am an outside facilitator, then I would never post a session, it's not my
'business'! When I am an insider, my general rule is still not to, but
maybe there are exceptions, and I would tread very lightly and quietly to
make sure my perceived power as a facilitator does not get in the way as
much as that is possible. I have also had a few cases where I asked someone
else to facilitate, because I really wanted to get in there!
I understand the risk of not being fully present, but isn't that most
important for when the facilitator is facilitating, i.e. during opening and
closing circles, and not so much during the breakout sessions, especially
if in OS the facilitator is 'allowed' to disappear and even put their feet
up.
That's an interesting one, whether to go for a nap or stick around. I
actually enjoy cleaning the coffee cups, and sometimes participants come to
me with all sorts of requests which I am happy to give back to them!
Sometimes the client wants to hang out and check-in, sometimes just being
there with them can support them if they are a bit anxious.
So, is a session called by a facilitator in a far off corner or in a
separate room not essentially disappearing?
Does that exist in OST, a centre, edges, near, far?
What's the difference and more importantly, what's the actual crux? What
exactly is it that makes it matter or not.
I think the crux is 'who are you in that particular OST beyond being the
facilitator? Anybody, nobody, somebody, everybody, a body!!!'
Many thanks.
Isaac
From: Michael M Pannwitz mmpannwitz@posteo.de
Sent: 06 December 2024 17:30
To: isaac a isaac48@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [OSList] Facilitators calling sessions.
Facilitators that turn into space invadors can not hold time and space for
the unfolding of the forces of selforganization, and are not able to even
approach the simple but tough requirement to be fully present and at the
same time be invisible.
Following this, your belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions is
not only your belief.
And don't forget, we facilitators get paid for our intervention to do
nothing.
Greetings from Berlin
mmp
Am 06.12.2024 um 18:00 schrieb isaac a via OSList:
Hi all,
I seem to have the belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions.
What's the OS etiquette around this, and why?
I can only think that it's either; to have a separation of the
facilitator's 'leader' role, from the attendees' non-hierarchical status
(in the spirit of OS), or by not taking up potentially valuable breakout
sessions, it's to leave more opportunities for attendees to be able to have
sessions.
I'd love to hear your views on this.
Thank you!
Isaac
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
+49 30 7728000 mmpannwitz@posteo.de
See the Open Space World Map with 535
Open Space Workers living in 81 countries
and active in 145 countries worldwide: www.openspaceworldmap.org
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
will be with you in a few days... right now we meet with our syrian
friends...
ciao
mmp
Am 08.12.2024 um 12:10 schrieb isaac a via OSList:
Thanks Michael. It took me a few attempts to try and fully understand
what you mean.
My question now is what exactly is a "Space Invader", and how does a
space invader behave that's detrimental?
I'm imagining that if a facilitator went around somehow interfering in
other people's sessions and trying to control and direct proceedings
and outcomes, then that would clearly be 'invading' space. However, if
a facilitator called their own session and had their own space, how is
that invading? I understand the risk of not being fully present, but
isn't that most important for when the facilitator is facilitating,
i.e. during opening and closing circles, and not so much during the
breakout sessions, especially if in OS the facilitator is 'allowed' to
disappear and even put their feet up.
So, is a session called by a facilitator in a far off corner or in a
separate room not essentially disappearing? What's the difference and
more importantly, what's the actual crux? What exactly is it that
makes it matter or not.
Many thanks.
Isaac
From: Michael M Pannwitz mmpannwitz@posteo.de
Sent: 06 December 2024 17:30
To: isaac a isaac48@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [OSList] Facilitators calling sessions.
Facilitators that turn into space invadors can not hold time and space
for the unfolding of the forces of selforganization, and are not able
to even approach the simple but tough requirement to be fully present
and at the same time be invisible.
Following this, your belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions
is not only your belief.
And don't forget, we facilitators get paid for our intervention to do
nothing.
Greetings from Berlin
mmp
Am 06.12.2024 um 18:00 schrieb isaac a via OSList:
Hi all,
I seem to have the belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions.
What's the OS etiquette around this, and why?
I can only think that it's either; to have a separation of the
facilitator's 'leader' role, from the attendees' non-hierarchical
status (in the spirit of OS), or by not taking up potentially
valuable breakout sessions, it's to leave more opportunities for
attendees to be able to have sessions.
I'd love to hear your views on this.
Thank you!
Isaac
OSList mailing list --everyone@oslist.org mailto:everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email toeveryone-leave@oslist.org mailto:everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here:https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
+49 30 7728000mmpannwitz@posteo.de mailto:mmpannwitz@posteo.de
See the Open Space World Map with 535
Open Space Workers living in 81 countries
and active in 145 countries worldwide:
www.openspaceworldmap.org http://www.openspaceworldmap.org
OSList mailing list --everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email toeveryone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here:https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin
+49 30 7728000mmpannwitz@posteo.de
Thanks so much Bav.
I clearly remember your microphone stand off story! Very skillfully handled!
In this context, I'm an insider, but I understand the dynamics of the facilitator being perceived as someone with power. Although I personally don't think I'd be adversely affected by a facilitator calling a session.
So, in the same way you'd ask someone to facilitate so that you can be in sessions, do you think it's ok to ask/negotiate with someone to call a session on a particularly important question that might not see the light of day? Obviously, they'd have to have the same passion as you. Is this a form of "treading lightly"?
Maybe what I could do is post something on a bulletin board, with my contact details, for a few people to connect with and meet at another time to self organise some kind of focus block, group work, and help each other work through things? Here, as an 'insider', (library services) I/we can offer free venue space to others to work on their issues. Now that I've said all that, it sounds more like Action Learning, and I guess that's ok.
Thanks!
Isaac
P S: I took almost always find myself sweeping, litter collecting, cleaning tables, washing cups and refilling all sorts!
From: Bhavesh Patel bhavmail@gmail.com
Sent: 08 December 2024 14:23
To: isaac a isaac48@hotmail.com
Cc: Michael M Pannwitz via OSList everyone@oslist.org
Subject: Re: [OSList] Re: Facilitators calling sessions.
Some random Sunday thoughts below in purple...
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 at 13:11, isaac a via OSList <everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org> wrote:
I will be back in the UK soon and look forward to catching up Isaac!
Thanks Michael. It took me a few attempts to try and fully understand what you mean.
My question now is what exactly is a "Space Invader", and how does a space invader behave that's detrimental?
For me a space invader is someone who is acting in a way that is closing down space for others, stoping them making choices, trying to exert their control on others. E.g. Once in an OST setting on the morning of day 02, a participant got up, took the mic, said we can stop this process now because they have found how all of this is connected, and now they will tell all of us what the new plan is... so I as the facilitator said that sounds like a great session, why don't you post it, and maybe everyone will join you, or maybe there will be other sessions, the person said no, everyone now has to follow his plan, and so there we were both holding the mic looking at each other...
I'm imagining that if a facilitator went around somehow interfering in other people's sessions and trying to control and direct proceedings and outcomes, then that would clearly be 'invading' space. However, if a facilitator called their own session and had their own space, how is that invading?
I think I would echo what everyone else said, it's very contextual. When I am an outside facilitator, then I would never post a session, it's not my 'business'! When I am an insider, my general rule is still not to, but maybe there are exceptions, and I would tread very lightly and quietly to make sure my perceived power as a facilitator does not get in the way as much as that is possible. I have also had a few cases where I asked someone else to facilitate, because I really wanted to get in there!
I understand the risk of not being fully present, but isn't that most important for when the facilitator is facilitating, i.e. during opening and closing circles, and not so much during the breakout sessions, especially if in OS the facilitator is 'allowed' to disappear and even put their feet up.
That's an interesting one, whether to go for a nap or stick around. I actually enjoy cleaning the coffee cups, and sometimes participants come to me with all sorts of requests which I am happy to give back to them! Sometimes the client wants to hang out and check-in, sometimes just being there with them can support them if they are a bit anxious.
So, is a session called by a facilitator in a far off corner or in a separate room not essentially disappearing?
Does that exist in OST, a centre, edges, near, far?
What's the difference and more importantly, what's the actual crux? What exactly is it that makes it matter or not.
I think the crux is 'who are you in that particular OST beyond being the facilitator? Anybody, nobody, somebody, everybody, a body!!!'
Many thanks.
Isaac
From: Michael M Pannwitz <mmpannwitz@posteo.demailto:mmpannwitz@posteo.de>
Sent: 06 December 2024 17:30
To: isaac a <isaac48@hotmail.commailto:isaac48@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Facilitators calling sessions.
Facilitators that turn into space invadors can not hold time and space for the unfolding of the forces of selforganization, and are not able to even approach the simple but tough requirement to be fully present and at the same time be invisible.
Following this, your belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions is not only your belief.
And don't forget, we facilitators get paid for our intervention to do nothing.
Greetings from Berlin
mmp
Am 06.12.2024 um 18:00 schrieb isaac a via OSList:
Hi all,
I seem to have the belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions.
What's the OS etiquette around this, and why?
I can only think that it's either; to have a separation of the facilitator's 'leader' role, from the attendees' non-hierarchical status (in the spirit of OS), or by not taking up potentially valuable breakout sessions, it's to leave more opportunities for attendees to be able to have sessions.
I'd love to hear your views on this.
Thank you!
Isaac
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.orgmailto:everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
+49 30 7728000 mmpannwitz@posteo.demailto:mmpannwitz@posteo.de
See the Open Space World Map with 535
Open Space Workers living in 81 countries
and active in 145 countries worldwide:
www.openspaceworldmap.orghttp://www.openspaceworldmap.org
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.orgmailto:everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
Continuing in purple below... and please do not feel the need to answer
any of my questions!
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 at 18:15, isaac a isaac48@hotmail.com wrote:
Thanks so much Bav.
I clearly remember your microphone stand off story! Very skillfully
handled!
In this context, I'm an insider, but I understand the dynamics of the
facilitator being perceived as someone with power. Although I personally
don't think I'd be adversely affected by a facilitator calling a session.
Have you explored the option of someone else opening space? Or it's not
really feasible...
So, in the same way you'd ask someone to facilitate so that you can be in
sessions, do you think it's ok to ask/negotiate with someone to call a
session on a particularly important question that might not see the light
of day? Obviously, they'd have to have the same passion as you. Is this a
form of "treading lightly"?
You will know in the moment whether:
- Your topic goes up without you needing to name it yourself!
- You ask someone else to post the topic who you know is passionate
about the topic and is not doing it just for you. - You decide to post-it yourself maybe nearer the end of the agenda
creation moment. - You realise your topic is not needed or the vibe is that you should
not post-it. - You need to somehow make clear your role if you are joining
discussions, if you are posting topics, etc. - Something else totally unexpected will happen, be prepared to be
surprised...
Maybe what I could do is post something on a bulletin board, with my
contact details, for a few people to connect with and meet at another time
to self organise some kind of focus block, group work, and help each other
work through things?
If I did that, I feel like that might be something more for the closing
circle, and where you might take off your 'facilitator hat'. I would be
cautious of posting that during the agenda creation moment, and then
suddenly others start doing that, because people often do what you do, not
what you say!
Here, as an 'insider', (library services) I/we can offer free venue space
to others to work on their issues. Now that I've said all that, it sounds
more like Action Learning, and I guess that's ok.
Thanks!
Isaac
P S: I took almost always find myself sweeping, litter collecting,
cleaning tables, washing cups and refilling all sorts!
From: Bhavesh Patel bhavmail@gmail.com
Sent: 08 December 2024 14:23
To: isaac a isaac48@hotmail.com
Cc: Michael M Pannwitz via OSList everyone@oslist.org
Subject: Re: [OSList] Re: Facilitators calling sessions.
Some random Sunday thoughts below in purple...
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 at 13:11, isaac a via OSList everyone@oslist.org
wrote:
I will be back in the UK soon and look forward to catching up Isaac!
Thanks Michael. It took me a few attempts to try and fully understand
what you mean.
My question now is what exactly is a "Space Invader", and how does a space
invader behave that's detrimental?
For me a space invader is someone who is acting in a way that is closing
down space for others, stoping them making choices, trying to exert their
control on others. E.g. Once in an OST setting on the morning of day 02, a
participant got up, took the mic, said we can stop this process now because
they have found how all of this is connected, and now they will tell all of
us what the new plan is... so I as the facilitator said that sounds like a
great session, why don't you post it, and maybe everyone will join you, or
maybe there will be other sessions, the person said no, everyone now has to
follow his plan, and so there we were both holding the mic looking at each
other...
I'm imagining that if a facilitator went around somehow interfering in
other people's sessions and trying to control and direct proceedings and
outcomes, then that would clearly be 'invading' space. However, if a
facilitator called their own session and had their own space, how is that
invading?
I think I would echo what everyone else said, it's very contextual. When I
am an outside facilitator, then I would never post a session, it's not my
'business'! When I am an insider, my general rule is still not to, but
maybe there are exceptions, and I would tread very lightly and quietly to
make sure my perceived power as a facilitator does not get in the way as
much as that is possible. I have also had a few cases where I asked someone
else to facilitate, because I really wanted to get in there!
I understand the risk of not being fully present, but isn't that most
important for when the facilitator is facilitating, i.e. during opening and
closing circles, and not so much during the breakout sessions, especially
if in OS the facilitator is 'allowed' to disappear and even put their feet
up.
That's an interesting one, whether to go for a nap or stick around. I
actually enjoy cleaning the coffee cups, and sometimes participants come to
me with all sorts of requests which I am happy to give back to them!
Sometimes the client wants to hang out and check-in, sometimes just being
there with them can support them if they are a bit anxious.
So, is a session called by a facilitator in a far off corner or in a
separate room not essentially disappearing?
Does that exist in OST, a centre, edges, near, far?
What's the difference and more importantly, what's the actual crux? What
exactly is it that makes it matter or not.
I think the crux is 'who are you in that particular OST beyond being the
facilitator? Anybody, nobody, somebody, everybody, a body!!!'
Many thanks.
Isaac
From: Michael M Pannwitz mmpannwitz@posteo.de
Sent: 06 December 2024 17:30
To: isaac a isaac48@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [OSList] Facilitators calling sessions.
Facilitators that turn into space invadors can not hold time and space for
the unfolding of the forces of selforganization, and are not able to even
approach the simple but tough requirement to be fully present and at the
same time be invisible.
Following this, your belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions is
not only your belief.
And don't forget, we facilitators get paid for our intervention to do
nothing.
Greetings from Berlin
mmp
Am 06.12.2024 um 18:00 schrieb isaac a via OSList:
Hi all,
I seem to have the belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions.
What's the OS etiquette around this, and why?
I can only think that it's either; to have a separation of the
facilitator's 'leader' role, from the attendees' non-hierarchical status
(in the spirit of OS), or by not taking up potentially valuable breakout
sessions, it's to leave more opportunities for attendees to be able to have
sessions.
I'd love to hear your views on this.
Thank you!
Isaac
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
+49 30 7728000 mmpannwitz@posteo.de
See the Open Space World Map with 535
Open Space Workers living in 81 countries
and active in 145 countries worldwide: www.openspaceworldmap.org
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
Thanks again Bhav.
In this instance, there isn't an option of someone else to open space.
I appreciate the "in the moment" insights!
Whatever happens...e.g. if someone came up to me and said "aren't you going to post something?" (I'm sure this would more likely be from other insiders, colleagues.. etc., who know me other than the 'facilitator' role)
IF that happened, then I'd check the temperature to see if it felt right... whatever happens...
It's a really nuanced balance of different kinds of 'presences' and awarenesses of the process, and how the room is vibing. That's a real skill.
Thank you.
Isaac
From: Bhavesh Patel bhavmail@gmail.com
Sent: 08 December 2024 17:10
To: isaac a isaac48@hotmail.com
Cc: Michael M Pannwitz via OSList everyone@oslist.org
Subject: Re: [OSList] Re: Facilitators calling sessions.
Continuing in purple below... and please do not feel the need to answer any of my questions!
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 at 18:15, isaac a <isaac48@hotmail.commailto:isaac48@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks so much Bav.
I clearly remember your microphone stand off story! Very skillfully handled!
In this context, I'm an insider, but I understand the dynamics of the facilitator being perceived as someone with power. Although I personally don't think I'd be adversely affected by a facilitator calling a session.
Have you explored the option of someone else opening space? Or it's not really feasible...
So, in the same way you'd ask someone to facilitate so that you can be in sessions, do you think it's ok to ask/negotiate with someone to call a session on a particularly important question that might not see the light of day? Obviously, they'd have to have the same passion as you. Is this a form of "treading lightly"?
You will know in the moment whether:
- Your topic goes up without you needing to name it yourself!
- You ask someone else to post the topic who you know is passionate about the topic and is not doing it just for you.
- You decide to post-it yourself maybe nearer the end of the agenda creation moment.
- You realise your topic is not needed or the vibe is that you should not post-it.
- You need to somehow make clear your role if you are joining discussions, if you are posting topics, etc.
- Something else totally unexpected will happen, be prepared to be surprised...
Maybe what I could do is post something on a bulletin board, with my contact details, for a few people to connect with and meet at another time to self organise some kind of focus block, group work, and help each other work through things?
If I did that, I feel like that might be something more for the closing circle, and where you might take off your 'facilitator hat'. I would be cautious of posting that during the agenda creation moment, and then suddenly others start doing that, because people often do what you do, not what you say!
Here, as an 'insider', (library services) I/we can offer free venue space to others to work on their issues. Now that I've said all that, it sounds more like Action Learning, and I guess that's ok.
Thanks!
Isaac
P S: I took almost always find myself sweeping, litter collecting, cleaning tables, washing cups and refilling all sorts!
From: Bhavesh Patel <bhavmail@gmail.commailto:bhavmail@gmail.com>
Sent: 08 December 2024 14:23
To: isaac a <isaac48@hotmail.commailto:isaac48@hotmail.com>
Cc: Michael M Pannwitz via OSList <everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Re: Facilitators calling sessions.
Some random Sunday thoughts below in purple...
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 at 13:11, isaac a via OSList <everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org> wrote:
I will be back in the UK soon and look forward to catching up Isaac!
Thanks Michael. It took me a few attempts to try and fully understand what you mean.
My question now is what exactly is a "Space Invader", and how does a space invader behave that's detrimental?
For me a space invader is someone who is acting in a way that is closing down space for others, stoping them making choices, trying to exert their control on others. E.g. Once in an OST setting on the morning of day 02, a participant got up, took the mic, said we can stop this process now because they have found how all of this is connected, and now they will tell all of us what the new plan is... so I as the facilitator said that sounds like a great session, why don't you post it, and maybe everyone will join you, or maybe there will be other sessions, the person said no, everyone now has to follow his plan, and so there we were both holding the mic looking at each other...
I'm imagining that if a facilitator went around somehow interfering in other people's sessions and trying to control and direct proceedings and outcomes, then that would clearly be 'invading' space. However, if a facilitator called their own session and had their own space, how is that invading?
I think I would echo what everyone else said, it's very contextual. When I am an outside facilitator, then I would never post a session, it's not my 'business'! When I am an insider, my general rule is still not to, but maybe there are exceptions, and I would tread very lightly and quietly to make sure my perceived power as a facilitator does not get in the way as much as that is possible. I have also had a few cases where I asked someone else to facilitate, because I really wanted to get in there!
I understand the risk of not being fully present, but isn't that most important for when the facilitator is facilitating, i.e. during opening and closing circles, and not so much during the breakout sessions, especially if in OS the facilitator is 'allowed' to disappear and even put their feet up.
That's an interesting one, whether to go for a nap or stick around. I actually enjoy cleaning the coffee cups, and sometimes participants come to me with all sorts of requests which I am happy to give back to them! Sometimes the client wants to hang out and check-in, sometimes just being there with them can support them if they are a bit anxious.
So, is a session called by a facilitator in a far off corner or in a separate room not essentially disappearing?
Does that exist in OST, a centre, edges, near, far?
What's the difference and more importantly, what's the actual crux? What exactly is it that makes it matter or not.
I think the crux is 'who are you in that particular OST beyond being the facilitator? Anybody, nobody, somebody, everybody, a body!!!'
Many thanks.
Isaac
From: Michael M Pannwitz <mmpannwitz@posteo.demailto:mmpannwitz@posteo.de>
Sent: 06 December 2024 17:30
To: isaac a <isaac48@hotmail.commailto:isaac48@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Facilitators calling sessions.
Facilitators that turn into space invadors can not hold time and space for the unfolding of the forces of selforganization, and are not able to even approach the simple but tough requirement to be fully present and at the same time be invisible.
Following this, your belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions is not only your belief.
And don't forget, we facilitators get paid for our intervention to do nothing.
Greetings from Berlin
mmp
Am 06.12.2024 um 18:00 schrieb isaac a via OSList:
Hi all,
I seem to have the belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions.
What's the OS etiquette around this, and why?
I can only think that it's either; to have a separation of the facilitator's 'leader' role, from the attendees' non-hierarchical status (in the spirit of OS), or by not taking up potentially valuable breakout sessions, it's to leave more opportunities for attendees to be able to have sessions.
I'd love to hear your views on this.
Thank you!
Isaac
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.orgmailto:everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
+49 30 7728000 mmpannwitz@posteo.demailto:mmpannwitz@posteo.de
See the Open Space World Map with 535
Open Space Workers living in 81 countries
and active in 145 countries worldwide:
www.openspaceworldmap.orghttp://www.openspaceworldmap.org
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.orgmailto:everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
the thing about asking someone else to put up your topic, isaac, is that IF
they care enough to put it up on their own, then you don't have to ask.
and if they don't, then it's probably you worrying too much about the
details of what goes up. slippery slope... because probably you'll wish
other people posted their sessions differently. or wish someone different
put up a specific topic. now your brain is very busy and not very
spacious! if you're the only one who gets this topic in the whole
room/org, then how is that conversation going to happen in any meaningful
way, regardless of who posts it and tries to kick it off. if it's
essential for you to do this, then as suggested already, maybe you're not
the one to facilitate... OR you need at least one partner so you two can
tag-team as facilitator while you each have a chance to participate as
individuals.
i'd also recommend revisiting the User's Guide, but also you might be
interested in the topics covered (directly on this list and then edited
together) in the User's Non-Guide, because some of what you're asking seems
technical/practical and some more about the spirit of os that is addressed
in teh non-guide. see the Shared Stories tab at openspaceworld.org for
links to both.
michael h
--
Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates
312-280-7838 (mobile)
MichaelHerman.com
OpenSpaceWorld.org
On Sun, Dec 8, 2024 at 11:13 AM isaac a via OSList everyone@oslist.org
wrote:
Thanks again Bhav.
In this instance, there isn't an option of someone else to open space.
I appreciate the "in the moment" insights!
Whatever happens...e.g. if someone came up to me and said "aren't you going
to post something?" (I'm sure this would more likely be from other
insiders, colleagues.. etc., who know me other than the 'facilitator' role)
IF that happened, then I'd check the temperature to see if it felt
right... whatever happens...
It's a really nuanced balance of different kinds of 'presences' and
awarenesses of the process, and how the room is vibing. That's a real skill.
Thank you.
Isaac
From: Bhavesh Patel bhavmail@gmail.com
Sent: 08 December 2024 17:10
To: isaac a isaac48@hotmail.com
Cc: Michael M Pannwitz via OSList everyone@oslist.org
Subject: Re: [OSList] Re: Facilitators calling sessions.
Continuing in purple below... and please do * not* feel the need to
answer any of my questions!
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 at 18:15, isaac a isaac48@hotmail.com wrote:
Thanks so much Bav.
I clearly remember your microphone stand off story! Very skillfully
handled!
In this context, I'm an insider, but I understand the dynamics of the
facilitator being perceived as someone with power. Although I personally
don't think I'd be adversely affected by a facilitator calling a session.
Have you explored the option of someone else opening space? Or it's not
really feasible...
So, in the same way you'd ask someone to facilitate so that you can be in
sessions, do you think it's ok to ask/negotiate with someone to call a
session on a particularly important question that might not see the light
of day? Obviously, they'd have to have the same passion as you. Is this a
form of "treading lightly"?
You will know in the moment whether:
- Your topic goes up without you needing to name it yourself!
- You ask someone else to post the topic who you know is passionate
about the topic and is not doing it just for you.
- You decide to post-it yourself maybe nearer the end of the agenda
creation moment.
- You realise your topic is not needed or the vibe is that you should
not post-it.
- You need to somehow make clear your role if you are joining
discussions, if you are posting topics, etc.
- Something else totally unexpected will happen, be prepared to be
surprised...
Maybe what I could do is post something on a bulletin board, with my
contact details, for a few people to connect with and meet at another time
to self organise some kind of focus block, group work, and help each other
work through things?
If I did that, I feel like that might be something more for the closing
circle, and where you might take off your 'facilitator hat'. I would be
cautious of posting that during the agenda creation moment, and then
suddenly others start doing that, because people often do what you do, not
what you say!
Here, as an 'insider', (library services) I/we can offer free venue space
to others to work on their issues. Now that I've said all that, it sounds
more like Action Learning, and I guess that's ok.
Thanks!
Isaac
P S: I took almost always find myself sweeping, litter collecting,
cleaning tables, washing cups and refilling all sorts!
From: Bhavesh Patel bhavmail@gmail.com
Sent: 08 December 2024 14:23
To: isaac a isaac48@hotmail.com
Cc: Michael M Pannwitz via OSList everyone@oslist.org
Subject: Re: [OSList] Re: Facilitators calling sessions.
Some random Sunday thoughts below in purple...
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 at 13:11, isaac a via OSList everyone@oslist.org
wrote:
I will be back in the UK soon and look forward to catching up Isaac!
Thanks Michael. It took me a few attempts to try and fully understand
what you mean.
My question now is what exactly is a "Space Invader", and how does a space
invader behave that's detrimental?
For me a space invader is someone who is acting in a way that is closing
down space for others, stoping them making choices, trying to exert their
control on others. E.g. Once in an OST setting on the morning of day 02, a
participant got up, took the mic, said we can stop this process now because
they have found how all of this is connected, and now they will tell all of
us what the new plan is... so I as the facilitator said that sounds like a
great session, why don't you post it, and maybe everyone will join you, or
maybe there will be other sessions, the person said no, everyone now has to
follow his plan, and so there we were both holding the mic looking at each
other...
I'm imagining that if a facilitator went around somehow interfering in
other people's sessions and trying to control and direct proceedings and
outcomes, then that would clearly be 'invading' space. However, if a
facilitator called their own session and had their own space, how is that
invading?
I think I would echo what everyone else said, it's very contextual. When I
am an outside facilitator, then I would never post a session, it's not my
'business'! When I am an insider, my general rule is still not to, but
maybe there are exceptions, and I would tread very lightly and quietly to
make sure my perceived power as a facilitator does not get in the way as
much as that is possible. I have also had a few cases where I asked someone
else to facilitate, because I really wanted to get in there!
I understand the risk of not being fully present, but isn't that most
important for when the facilitator is facilitating, i.e. during opening and
closing circles, and not so much during the breakout sessions, especially
if in OS the facilitator is 'allowed' to disappear and even put their feet
up.
That's an interesting one, whether to go for a nap or stick around. I
actually enjoy cleaning the coffee cups, and sometimes participants come to
me with all sorts of requests which I am happy to give back to them!
Sometimes the client wants to hang out and check-in, sometimes just being
there with them can support them if they are a bit anxious.
So, is a session called by a facilitator in a far off corner or in a
separate room not essentially disappearing?
Does that exist in OST, a centre, edges, near, far?
What's the difference and more importantly, what's the actual crux? What
exactly is it that makes it matter or not.
I think the crux is 'who are you in that particular OST beyond being the
facilitator? Anybody, nobody, somebody, everybody, a body!!!'
Many thanks.
Isaac
From: Michael M Pannwitz mmpannwitz@posteo.de
Sent: 06 December 2024 17:30
To: isaac a isaac48@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [OSList] Facilitators calling sessions.
Facilitators that turn into space invadors can not hold time and space for
the unfolding of the forces of selforganization, and are not able to even
approach the simple but tough requirement to be fully present and at the
same time be invisible.
Following this, your belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions is
not only your belief.
And don't forget, we facilitators get paid for our intervention to do
nothing.
Greetings from Berlin
mmp
Am 06.12.2024 um 18:00 schrieb isaac a via OSList:
Hi all,
I seem to have the belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions.
What's the OS etiquette around this, and why?
I can only think that it's either; to have a separation of the
facilitator's 'leader' role, from the attendees' non-hierarchical status
(in the spirit of OS), or by not taking up potentially valuable breakout
sessions, it's to leave more opportunities for attendees to be able to have
sessions.
I'd love to hear your views on this.
Thank you!
Isaac
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
+49 30 7728000 mmpannwitz@posteo.de
See the Open Space World Map with 535
Open Space Workers living in 81 countries
and active in 145 countries worldwide: www.openspaceworldmap.org
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
Syria needs Open Space to move safely forward!
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 8, 2024, at 2:51 PM, Michael Herman via OSList everyone@oslist.org wrote:
the thing about asking someone else to put up your topic, isaac, is that IF they care enough to put it up on their own, then you don't have to ask. and if they don't, then it's probably you worrying too much about the details of what goes up. slippery slope... because probably you'll wish other people posted their sessions differently. or wish someone different put up a specific topic. now your brain is very busy and not very spacious! if you're the only one who gets this topic in the whole room/org, then how is that conversation going to happen in any meaningful way, regardless of who posts it and tries to kick it off. if it's essential for you to do this, then as suggested already, maybe you're not the one to facilitate... OR you need at least one partner so you two can tag-team as facilitator while you each have a chance to participate as individuals.
i'd also recommend revisiting the User's Guide, but also you might be interested in the topics covered (directly on this list and then edited together) in the User's Non-Guide, because some of what you're asking seems technical/practical and some more about the spirit of os that is addressed in teh non-guide. see the Shared Stories tab at openspaceworld.orghttp://openspaceworld.org for links to both.
michael h
--
Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates
312-280-7838 (mobile)
MichaelHerman.comhttp://MichaelHerman.com
OpenSpaceWorld.orghttp://OpenSpaceWorld.org
On Sun, Dec 8, 2024 at 11:13 AM isaac a via OSList <everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org> wrote:
Thanks again Bhav.
In this instance, there isn't an option of someone else to open space.
I appreciate the "in the moment" insights!
Whatever happens...e.g. if someone came up to me and said "aren't you going to post something?" (I'm sure this would more likely be from other insiders, colleagues.. etc., who know me other than the 'facilitator' role)
IF that happened, then I'd check the temperature to see if it felt right... whatever happens...
It's a really nuanced balance of different kinds of 'presences' and awarenesses of the process, and how the room is vibing. That's a real skill.
Thank you.
Isaac
From: Bhavesh Patel <bhavmail@gmail.commailto:bhavmail@gmail.com>
Sent: 08 December 2024 17:10
To: isaac a <isaac48@hotmail.commailto:isaac48@hotmail.com>
Cc: Michael M Pannwitz via OSList <everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Re: Facilitators calling sessions.
Continuing in purple below... and please do not feel the need to answer any of my questions!
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 at 18:15, isaac a <isaac48@hotmail.commailto:isaac48@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks so much Bav.
I clearly remember your microphone stand off story! Very skillfully handled!
In this context, I'm an insider, but I understand the dynamics of the facilitator being perceived as someone with power. Although I personally don't think I'd be adversely affected by a facilitator calling a session.
Have you explored the option of someone else opening space? Or it's not really feasible...
So, in the same way you'd ask someone to facilitate so that you can be in sessions, do you think it's ok to ask/negotiate with someone to call a session on a particularly important question that might not see the light of day? Obviously, they'd have to have the same passion as you. Is this a form of "treading lightly"?
You will know in the moment whether:
- Your topic goes up without you needing to name it yourself!
- You ask someone else to post the topic who you know is passionate about the topic and is not doing it just for you.
- You decide to post-it yourself maybe nearer the end of the agenda creation moment.
- You realise your topic is not needed or the vibe is that you should not post-it.
- You need to somehow make clear your role if you are joining discussions, if you are posting topics, etc.
- Something else totally unexpected will happen, be prepared to be surprised...
Maybe what I could do is post something on a bulletin board, with my contact details, for a few people to connect with and meet at another time to self organise some kind of focus block, group work, and help each other work through things?
If I did that, I feel like that might be something more for the closing circle, and where you might take off your 'facilitator hat'. I would be cautious of posting that during the agenda creation moment, and then suddenly others start doing that, because people often do what you do, not what you say!
Here, as an 'insider', (library services) I/we can offer free venue space to others to work on their issues. Now that I've said all that, it sounds more like Action Learning, and I guess that's ok.
Thanks!
Isaac
P S: I took almost always find myself sweeping, litter collecting, cleaning tables, washing cups and refilling all sorts!
From: Bhavesh Patel <bhavmail@gmail.commailto:bhavmail@gmail.com>
Sent: 08 December 2024 14:23
To: isaac a <isaac48@hotmail.commailto:isaac48@hotmail.com>
Cc: Michael M Pannwitz via OSList <everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Re: Facilitators calling sessions.
Some random Sunday thoughts below in purple...
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 at 13:11, isaac a via OSList <everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org> wrote:
I will be back in the UK soon and look forward to catching up Isaac!
Thanks Michael. It took me a few attempts to try and fully understand what you mean.
My question now is what exactly is a "Space Invader", and how does a space invader behave that's detrimental?
For me a space invader is someone who is acting in a way that is closing down space for others, stoping them making choices, trying to exert their control on others. E.g. Once in an OST setting on the morning of day 02, a participant got up, took the mic, said we can stop this process now because they have found how all of this is connected, and now they will tell all of us what the new plan is... so I as the facilitator said that sounds like a great session, why don't you post it, and maybe everyone will join you, or maybe there will be other sessions, the person said no, everyone now has to follow his plan, and so there we were both holding the mic looking at each other...
I'm imagining that if a facilitator went around somehow interfering in other people's sessions and trying to control and direct proceedings and outcomes, then that would clearly be 'invading' space. However, if a facilitator called their own session and had their own space, how is that invading?
I think I would echo what everyone else said, it's very contextual. When I am an outside facilitator, then I would never post a session, it's not my 'business'! When I am an insider, my general rule is still not to, but maybe there are exceptions, and I would tread very lightly and quietly to make sure my perceived power as a facilitator does not get in the way as much as that is possible. I have also had a few cases where I asked someone else to facilitate, because I really wanted to get in there!
I understand the risk of not being fully present, but isn't that most important for when the facilitator is facilitating, i.e. during opening and closing circles, and not so much during the breakout sessions, especially if in OS the facilitator is 'allowed' to disappear and even put their feet up.
That's an interesting one, whether to go for a nap or stick around. I actually enjoy cleaning the coffee cups, and sometimes participants come to me with all sorts of requests which I am happy to give back to them! Sometimes the client wants to hang out and check-in, sometimes just being there with them can support them if they are a bit anxious.
So, is a session called by a facilitator in a far off corner or in a separate room not essentially disappearing?
Does that exist in OST, a centre, edges, near, far?
What's the difference and more importantly, what's the actual crux? What exactly is it that makes it matter or not.
I think the crux is 'who are you in that particular OST beyond being the facilitator? Anybody, nobody, somebody, everybody, a body!!!'
Many thanks.
Isaac
From: Michael M Pannwitz <mmpannwitz@posteo.demailto:mmpannwitz@posteo.de>
Sent: 06 December 2024 17:30
To: isaac a <isaac48@hotmail.commailto:isaac48@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Facilitators calling sessions.
Facilitators that turn into space invadors can not hold time and space for the unfolding of the forces of selforganization, and are not able to even approach the simple but tough requirement to be fully present and at the same time be invisible.
Following this, your belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions is not only your belief.
And don't forget, we facilitators get paid for our intervention to do nothing.
Greetings from Berlin
mmp
Am 06.12.2024 um 18:00 schrieb isaac a via OSList:
Hi all,
I seem to have the belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions.
What's the OS etiquette around this, and why?
I can only think that it's either; to have a separation of the facilitator's 'leader' role, from the attendees' non-hierarchical status (in the spirit of OS), or by not taking up potentially valuable breakout sessions, it's to leave more opportunities for attendees to be able to have sessions.
I'd love to hear your views on this.
Thank you!
Isaac
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.orgmailto:everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
+49 30 7728000 mmpannwitz@posteo.demailto:mmpannwitz@posteo.de
See the Open Space World Map with 535
Open Space Workers living in 81 countries
and active in 145 countries worldwide:
www.openspaceworldmap.orghttp://www.openspaceworldmap.org
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.orgmailto:everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.orgmailto:everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
Thank you Michael! I'm glad I asked. I'm learning...
From: Michael Herman michael@michaelherman.com
Sent: 08 December 2024 19:50
To: isaac a isaac48@hotmail.com
Cc: Bhavesh Patel bhavmail@gmail.com; Michael M Pannwitz via OSList everyone@oslist.org
Subject: Re: [OSList] Re: Facilitators calling sessions.
the thing about asking someone else to put up your topic, isaac, is that IF they care enough to put it up on their own, then you don't have to ask. and if they don't, then it's probably you worrying too much about the details of what goes up. slippery slope... because probably you'll wish other people posted their sessions differently. or wish someone different put up a specific topic. now your brain is very busy and not very spacious! if you're the only one who gets this topic in the whole room/org, then how is that conversation going to happen in any meaningful way, regardless of who posts it and tries to kick it off. if it's essential for you to do this, then as suggested already, maybe you're not the one to facilitate... OR you need at least one partner so you two can tag-team as facilitator while you each have a chance to participate as individuals.
i'd also recommend revisiting the User's Guide, but also you might be interested in the topics covered (directly on this list and then edited together) in the User's Non-Guide, because some of what you're asking seems technical/practical and some more about the spirit of os that is addressed in teh non-guide. see the Shared Stories tab at openspaceworld.orghttp://openspaceworld.org for links to both.
michael h
--
Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates
312-280-7838 (mobile)
MichaelHerman.comhttp://MichaelHerman.com
OpenSpaceWorld.orghttp://OpenSpaceWorld.org
On Sun, Dec 8, 2024 at 11:13 AM isaac a via OSList <everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org> wrote:
Thanks again Bhav.
In this instance, there isn't an option of someone else to open space.
I appreciate the "in the moment" insights!
Whatever happens...e.g. if someone came up to me and said "aren't you going to post something?" (I'm sure this would more likely be from other insiders, colleagues.. etc., who know me other than the 'facilitator' role)
IF that happened, then I'd check the temperature to see if it felt right... whatever happens...
It's a really nuanced balance of different kinds of 'presences' and awarenesses of the process, and how the room is vibing. That's a real skill.
Thank you.
Isaac
From: Bhavesh Patel <bhavmail@gmail.commailto:bhavmail@gmail.com>
Sent: 08 December 2024 17:10
To: isaac a <isaac48@hotmail.commailto:isaac48@hotmail.com>
Cc: Michael M Pannwitz via OSList <everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Re: Facilitators calling sessions.
Continuing in purple below... and please do not feel the need to answer any of my questions!
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 at 18:15, isaac a <isaac48@hotmail.commailto:isaac48@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks so much Bav.
I clearly remember your microphone stand off story! Very skillfully handled!
In this context, I'm an insider, but I understand the dynamics of the facilitator being perceived as someone with power. Although I personally don't think I'd be adversely affected by a facilitator calling a session.
Have you explored the option of someone else opening space? Or it's not really feasible...
So, in the same way you'd ask someone to facilitate so that you can be in sessions, do you think it's ok to ask/negotiate with someone to call a session on a particularly important question that might not see the light of day? Obviously, they'd have to have the same passion as you. Is this a form of "treading lightly"?
You will know in the moment whether:
- Your topic goes up without you needing to name it yourself!
- You ask someone else to post the topic who you know is passionate about the topic and is not doing it just for you.
- You decide to post-it yourself maybe nearer the end of the agenda creation moment.
- You realise your topic is not needed or the vibe is that you should not post-it.
- You need to somehow make clear your role if you are joining discussions, if you are posting topics, etc.
- Something else totally unexpected will happen, be prepared to be surprised...
Maybe what I could do is post something on a bulletin board, with my contact details, for a few people to connect with and meet at another time to self organise some kind of focus block, group work, and help each other work through things?
If I did that, I feel like that might be something more for the closing circle, and where you might take off your 'facilitator hat'. I would be cautious of posting that during the agenda creation moment, and then suddenly others start doing that, because people often do what you do, not what you say!
Here, as an 'insider', (library services) I/we can offer free venue space to others to work on their issues. Now that I've said all that, it sounds more like Action Learning, and I guess that's ok.
Thanks!
Isaac
P S: I took almost always find myself sweeping, litter collecting, cleaning tables, washing cups and refilling all sorts!
From: Bhavesh Patel <bhavmail@gmail.commailto:bhavmail@gmail.com>
Sent: 08 December 2024 14:23
To: isaac a <isaac48@hotmail.commailto:isaac48@hotmail.com>
Cc: Michael M Pannwitz via OSList <everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Re: Facilitators calling sessions.
Some random Sunday thoughts below in purple...
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 at 13:11, isaac a via OSList <everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org> wrote:
I will be back in the UK soon and look forward to catching up Isaac!
Thanks Michael. It took me a few attempts to try and fully understand what you mean.
My question now is what exactly is a "Space Invader", and how does a space invader behave that's detrimental?
For me a space invader is someone who is acting in a way that is closing down space for others, stoping them making choices, trying to exert their control on others. E.g. Once in an OST setting on the morning of day 02, a participant got up, took the mic, said we can stop this process now because they have found how all of this is connected, and now they will tell all of us what the new plan is... so I as the facilitator said that sounds like a great session, why don't you post it, and maybe everyone will join you, or maybe there will be other sessions, the person said no, everyone now has to follow his plan, and so there we were both holding the mic looking at each other...
I'm imagining that if a facilitator went around somehow interfering in other people's sessions and trying to control and direct proceedings and outcomes, then that would clearly be 'invading' space. However, if a facilitator called their own session and had their own space, how is that invading?
I think I would echo what everyone else said, it's very contextual. When I am an outside facilitator, then I would never post a session, it's not my 'business'! When I am an insider, my general rule is still not to, but maybe there are exceptions, and I would tread very lightly and quietly to make sure my perceived power as a facilitator does not get in the way as much as that is possible. I have also had a few cases where I asked someone else to facilitate, because I really wanted to get in there!
I understand the risk of not being fully present, but isn't that most important for when the facilitator is facilitating, i.e. during opening and closing circles, and not so much during the breakout sessions, especially if in OS the facilitator is 'allowed' to disappear and even put their feet up.
That's an interesting one, whether to go for a nap or stick around. I actually enjoy cleaning the coffee cups, and sometimes participants come to me with all sorts of requests which I am happy to give back to them! Sometimes the client wants to hang out and check-in, sometimes just being there with them can support them if they are a bit anxious.
So, is a session called by a facilitator in a far off corner or in a separate room not essentially disappearing?
Does that exist in OST, a centre, edges, near, far?
What's the difference and more importantly, what's the actual crux? What exactly is it that makes it matter or not.
I think the crux is 'who are you in that particular OST beyond being the facilitator? Anybody, nobody, somebody, everybody, a body!!!'
Many thanks.
Isaac
From: Michael M Pannwitz <mmpannwitz@posteo.demailto:mmpannwitz@posteo.de>
Sent: 06 December 2024 17:30
To: isaac a <isaac48@hotmail.commailto:isaac48@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Facilitators calling sessions.
Facilitators that turn into space invadors can not hold time and space for the unfolding of the forces of selforganization, and are not able to even approach the simple but tough requirement to be fully present and at the same time be invisible.
Following this, your belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions is not only your belief.
And don't forget, we facilitators get paid for our intervention to do nothing.
Greetings from Berlin
mmp
Am 06.12.2024 um 18:00 schrieb isaac a via OSList:
Hi all,
I seem to have the belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions.
What's the OS etiquette around this, and why?
I can only think that it's either; to have a separation of the facilitator's 'leader' role, from the attendees' non-hierarchical status (in the spirit of OS), or by not taking up potentially valuable breakout sessions, it's to leave more opportunities for attendees to be able to have sessions.
I'd love to hear your views on this.
Thank you!
Isaac
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Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
+49 30 7728000 mmpannwitz@posteo.demailto:mmpannwitz@posteo.de
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My understanding born and bred in practice is that topics have to come from the people in the room. My very first OS someone came up as all the people were organizing sessions and timing and said “nobody proposed anything related to budget. Don’t they realize without funding none of these things will happen. Shouldn’t you get someone to lead that?” I don’t know who I was channeling but out of my mouth was “The trouble is, if someone didn’t propose it, it means there is no will for action and certainly not enough passion to make it work. At the same time when people follow their passion the fuel to find what you need to make it live will include / surpass simple budget/funding questions.” I think she and I were startled by that answer…. But she got it - and I think I did too. So, the insider / outsider is very clear and stark for me. If it didn’t come from the people in the space I am holding, it is not a priority for them. It is, for me, like the faux pas of someone proposing at someone else’s wedding reception which I understand is very bad form. :)
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From: isaac a via OSList everyone@oslist.org
Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2024 12:19:11 PM
To: Michael Herman michael@michaelherman.com
Cc: Bhavesh Patel bhavmail@gmail.com; Michael M Pannwitz via OSList everyone@oslist.org
Subject: [OSList] Re: Facilitators calling sessions.
CAUTION: This email is not from UNBC. Avoid links and attachments. Don't buy gift cards.
Thank you Michael! I'm glad I asked. I'm learning...
From: Michael Herman michael@michaelherman.com
Sent: 08 December 2024 19:50
To: isaac a isaac48@hotmail.com
Cc: Bhavesh Patel bhavmail@gmail.com; Michael M Pannwitz via OSList everyone@oslist.org
Subject: Re: [OSList] Re: Facilitators calling sessions.
the thing about asking someone else to put up your topic, isaac, is that IF they care enough to put it up on their own, then you don't have to ask. and if they don't, then it's probably you worrying too much about the details of what goes up. slippery slope... because probably you'll wish other people posted their sessions differently. or wish someone different put up a specific topic. now your brain is very busy and not very spacious! if you're the only one who gets this topic in the whole room/org, then how is that conversation going to happen in any meaningful way, regardless of who posts it and tries to kick it off. if it's essential for you to do this, then as suggested already, maybe you're not the one to facilitate... OR you need at least one partner so you two can tag-team as facilitator while you each have a chance to participate as individuals.
i'd also recommend revisiting the User's Guide, but also you might be interested in the topics covered (directly on this list and then edited together) in the User's Non-Guide, because some of what you're asking seems technical/practical and some more about the spirit of os that is addressed in teh non-guide. see the Shared Stories tab at openspaceworld.orghttp://openspaceworld.org/ for links to both.
michael h
--
Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates
312-280-7838 (mobile)
MichaelHerman.comhttp://michaelherman.com/
OpenSpaceWorld.orghttp://openspaceworld.org/
On Sun, Dec 8, 2024 at 11:13 AM isaac a via OSList <everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org> wrote:
Thanks again Bhav.
In this instance, there isn't an option of someone else to open space.
I appreciate the "in the moment" insights!
Whatever happens...e.g. if someone came up to me and said "aren't you going to post something?" (I'm sure this would more likely be from other insiders, colleagues.. etc., who know me other than the 'facilitator' role)
IF that happened, then I'd check the temperature to see if it felt right... whatever happens...
It's a really nuanced balance of different kinds of 'presences' and awarenesses of the process, and how the room is vibing. That's a real skill.
Thank you.
Isaac
From: Bhavesh Patel <bhavmail@gmail.commailto:bhavmail@gmail.com>
Sent: 08 December 2024 17:10
To: isaac a <isaac48@hotmail.commailto:isaac48@hotmail.com>
Cc: Michael M Pannwitz via OSList <everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Re: Facilitators calling sessions.
Continuing in purple below... and please do not feel the need to answer any of my questions!
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 at 18:15, isaac a <isaac48@hotmail.commailto:isaac48@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks so much Bav.
I clearly remember your microphone stand off story! Very skillfully handled!
In this context, I'm an insider, but I understand the dynamics of the facilitator being perceived as someone with power. Although I personally don't think I'd be adversely affected by a facilitator calling a session.
Have you explored the option of someone else opening space? Or it's not really feasible...
So, in the same way you'd ask someone to facilitate so that you can be in sessions, do you think it's ok to ask/negotiate with someone to call a session on a particularly important question that might not see the light of day? Obviously, they'd have to have the same passion as you. Is this a form of "treading lightly"?
You will know in the moment whether:
- Your topic goes up without you needing to name it yourself!
- You ask someone else to post the topic who you know is passionate about the topic and is not doing it just for you.
- You decide to post-it yourself maybe nearer the end of the agenda creation moment.
- You realise your topic is not needed or the vibe is that you should not post-it.
- You need to somehow make clear your role if you are joining discussions, if you are posting topics, etc.
- Something else totally unexpected will happen, be prepared to be surprised...
Maybe what I could do is post something on a bulletin board, with my contact details, for a few people to connect with and meet at another time to self organise some kind of focus block, group work, and help each other work through things?
If I did that, I feel like that might be something more for the closing circle, and where you might take off your 'facilitator hat'. I would be cautious of posting that during the agenda creation moment, and then suddenly others start doing that, because people often do what you do, not what you say!
Here, as an 'insider', (library services) I/we can offer free venue space to others to work on their issues. Now that I've said all that, it sounds more like Action Learning, and I guess that's ok.
Thanks!
Isaac
P S: I took almost always find myself sweeping, litter collecting, cleaning tables, washing cups and refilling all sorts!
From: Bhavesh Patel <bhavmail@gmail.commailto:bhavmail@gmail.com>
Sent: 08 December 2024 14:23
To: isaac a <isaac48@hotmail.commailto:isaac48@hotmail.com>
Cc: Michael M Pannwitz via OSList <everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Re: Facilitators calling sessions.
Some random Sunday thoughts below in purple...
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 at 13:11, isaac a via OSList <everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org> wrote:
I will be back in the UK soon and look forward to catching up Isaac!
Thanks Michael. It took me a few attempts to try and fully understand what you mean.
My question now is what exactly is a "Space Invader", and how does a space invader behave that's detrimental?
For me a space invader is someone who is acting in a way that is closing down space for others, stoping them making choices, trying to exert their control on others. E.g. Once in an OST setting on the morning of day 02, a participant got up, took the mic, said we can stop this process now because they have found how all of this is connected, and now they will tell all of us what the new plan is... so I as the facilitator said that sounds like a great session, why don't you post it, and maybe everyone will join you, or maybe there will be other sessions, the person said no, everyone now has to follow his plan, and so there we were both holding the mic looking at each other...
I'm imagining that if a facilitator went around somehow interfering in other people's sessions and trying to control and direct proceedings and outcomes, then that would clearly be 'invading' space. However, if a facilitator called their own session and had their own space, how is that invading?
I think I would echo what everyone else said, it's very contextual. When I am an outside facilitator, then I would never post a session, it's not my 'business'! When I am an insider, my general rule is still not to, but maybe there are exceptions, and I would tread very lightly and quietly to make sure my perceived power as a facilitator does not get in the way as much as that is possible. I have also had a few cases where I asked someone else to facilitate, because I really wanted to get in there!
I understand the risk of not being fully present, but isn't that most important for when the facilitator is facilitating, i.e. during opening and closing circles, and not so much during the breakout sessions, especially if in OS the facilitator is 'allowed' to disappear and even put their feet up.
That's an interesting one, whether to go for a nap or stick around. I actually enjoy cleaning the coffee cups, and sometimes participants come to me with all sorts of requests which I am happy to give back to them! Sometimes the client wants to hang out and check-in, sometimes just being there with them can support them if they are a bit anxious.
So, is a session called by a facilitator in a far off corner or in a separate room not essentially disappearing?
Does that exist in OST, a centre, edges, near, far?
What's the difference and more importantly, what's the actual crux? What exactly is it that makes it matter or not.
I think the crux is 'who are you in that particular OST beyond being the facilitator? Anybody, nobody, somebody, everybody, a body!!!'
Many thanks.
Isaac
From: Michael M Pannwitz <mmpannwitz@posteo.demailto:mmpannwitz@posteo.de>
Sent: 06 December 2024 17:30
To: isaac a <isaac48@hotmail.commailto:isaac48@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Facilitators calling sessions.
Facilitators that turn into space invadors can not hold time and space for the unfolding of the forces of selforganization, and are not able to even approach the simple but tough requirement to be fully present and at the same time be invisible.
Following this, your belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions is not only your belief.
And don't forget, we facilitators get paid for our intervention to do nothing.
Greetings from Berlin
mmp
Am 06.12.2024 um 18:00 schrieb isaac a via OSList:
Hi all,
I seem to have the belief that facilitators shouldn't call sessions.
What's the OS etiquette around this, and why?
I can only think that it's either; to have a separation of the facilitator's 'leader' role, from the attendees' non-hierarchical status (in the spirit of OS), or by not taking up potentially valuable breakout sessions, it's to leave more opportunities for attendees to be able to have sessions.
I'd love to hear your views on this.
Thank you!
Isaac
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.orgmailto:everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
+49 30 7728000 mmpannwitz@posteo.demailto:mmpannwitz@posteo.de
See the Open Space World Map with 535
Open Space Workers living in 81 countries
and active in 145 countries worldwide:
www.openspaceworldmap.orghttp://www.openspaceworldmap.org/
OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.orgmailto:everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.orgmailto:everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org
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To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.orgmailto:everyone-leave@oslist.org
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