Hi Bhav and everyone!

I hope you are doing great, and thank you for posting the article by Tim
O'Reilly.  I pasted in the relevant quote about the scientist Humboldt who
created a conversational conference.

Given the information available in the article, I can't come to the same
conclusion of the author, that Humboldt's event format was the same as open
space.  I think more info is needed to hear about whether people could
propose topics, whether they could choose sessions, and whether they could
move between sessions.  From the information available, it might be that
Humboldt chose all the topics and assigned people to different discussions.

Here is the relevant part of the article:

It would be interesting to know more.
Lucas Cioffi

On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 1:16 AM Bhavesh Patel via OSList <
everyone@oslist.org> wrote:

Thank you Lucas for the inspiring reference to Humboldt. I just looked for the speech (https://www.deutschestextarchiv.de/book/view/humboldt_rede_1828?p=1) and had a passage translated with DeepL:

The ancient generation knew the value of the living word, the inspiring influence which high mastery exerts through its proximity, and the illuminating power of conversation when it passes unprepared, freely and gently at the same time, through the fabric of scientific opinions and doubts. Unveiling of the truth is unthinkable without divergence of opinions, because the truth is not recognized in its entire scope, at once, and by all at the same time.

Rolf

Am 28.06.2023 um 08:52 schrieb Lucas Cioffi via OSList everyone@oslist.org:

Hi Bhav and everyone!

I hope you are doing great, and thank you for posting the article by Tim O'Reilly.  I pasted in the relevant quote about the scientist Humboldt who created a conversational conference.

Given the information available in the article, I can't come to the same conclusion of the author, that Humboldt's event format was the same as open space.  I think more info is needed to hear about whether people could propose topics, whether they could choose sessions, and whether they could move between sessions.  From the information available, it might be that Humboldt chose all the topics and assigned people to different discussions.

Here is the relevant part of the article:

It would be interesting to know more.
Lucas Cioffi

On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 1:16 AM Bhavesh Patel via OSList <everyone@oslist.org mailto:everyone@oslist.org> wrote:

OSList mailing list -- everyone@oslist.org
To unsubscribe send an email to everyone-leave@oslist.org
See the archives here: https://oslist.org/empathy/list/everyone.oslist.org

Interesting...what I see is a kindred spirit between Humboldt and Owen in
that both thought about doing meetings differently and drew on their
knowledge of the natural world to do so.

Thanks for the link Rolf.

Chris

On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 5:09 AM Rolf Schneidereit via OSList <
everyone@oslist.org> wrote:

--

CHRIS CORRIGAN
Blog and resources: http://www.chriscorrigan.com
Harvest Moon Consultants: https://www.harvestmoonconsultants.com

Upcoming events and workshops and online courses:
https://www.chriscorrigan.com/parkinglot/events/

Located on Nex̱wlélex̱wm (Bowen Island), Sḵwx̱wú7mesh-ulh territory,

Maybe those of you gathering in Berlin can revisit some of the locations
where this gathering of interdisciplinary break out groups was held!

On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 1:31 PM Chris Corrigan chris.corrigan@gmail.com
wrote:

--

CHRIS CORRIGAN
Blog and resources: http://www.chriscorrigan.com
Harvest Moon Consultants: https://www.harvestmoonconsultants.com

Upcoming events and workshops and online courses:
https://www.chriscorrigan.com/parkinglot/events/

Located on Nex̱wlélex̱wm (Bowen Island), Sḵwx̱wú7mesh-ulh territory,

mmp, i heard same about "meeting under the trees" from south africans.

and lucas, you forgot one other important criteria... did humboldt's
practice include napping?  ...i.e. was he working too hard?

m

--

Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates
312-280-7838 (mobile)

MichaelHerman.com
OpenSpaceWorld.org

On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 2:35 PM Chris Corrigan via OSList <
everyone@oslist.org> wrote:

Hi Bhav and all,

A bit late to the party, but I've researched a little and would like to
share a little context with you. The post on LinkedIn briefly quotes a
secondary source, which includes only a few paragraphs on the 1828
Berlin Gathering ("Versammlung").

There is also a comprehensive 57-page report (in German) on this
gathering, published by the organizers (Humboldt and Lichtenstein) a
year later. It is downloadable from
https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Gesellschaft_Deutscher_Naturforscher_und_%C3%84rzte

Interestingly, one goal of that report was to satisfy the large interest
in "how the preparations were made, since this might be useful in case
the gathering was to occur in a large and populous place again" (page
IV). The content of the report is truly amazing and answers all related
questions; plus, it gives an account of how things played out, in
practice. It states that organization started 9 months ahead of the
gathering (p. 1). Organizers were aware that the number of participants
would grow considerably, compared to earlier years (p. 2 & 4; today it
is assumed that ultimately around 460 men attended).

A few key points of the report:

1. Besides the participants, around 600 local dignitaries received
   tickets. So there was a selected "audience", too.
2. Every day 10am-2pm, there was a "public gathering" for all
   participants. Every participant had a reserved, numbered seat
   (p.12), and both the selected audience and the participants had
   their own, separate entrances and seating spaces. There was also
   kind of a gallery with access completely open for everybody. There
   is a sketch of the room setup in the annex, it resembles a school
   setup with rows of tables facing a presenter stage.
3. The public gatherings were expressly meant for /lectures/
   ("Vorträge"), and considering roughly 460 participants would of
   course not allow for everybody of them giving a lecture. At the
   beginning, the lectures of the day, and their sequence, were to be
   shouted out loud; at the end, the same for the lectures of the
   following day (p. 11 & 12).
4. A few separate rooms were reserved for conversations and
   communications ("Mittheilungen", literally: "sharings"),
   presentations and demonstrations that were not of "wide interest",
   where members of specific "sections" (topics) would gather (p. 12 & 22)
5. After the daily public gatherings, participants would have lunch
   together at 20 tables, 24 persons each, in a huge hall.
6. The afternoons were reserved for excursions.
7. On the second day, "sections" had formed for "geognosis and
   geography"; "physics and chemistry"; "anatomy and physiology";
   "zoology"; "botanics"; "practical medicine"; also the sections had
   agreed on when and where they would meet (p. 22); the naming changed
   a bit later, and the sections had elected chairmen (1-2, per
   section) (p. 31)
8. The report states that on the evening on the second day, members of
   the "sections" gathered in large numbers at the "Cafe royal" and
   more lectures and presentations were given (p. 23 & 24);
   interestingly, the report mentions both lectures ("Vorträge") as
   well as conversations & communications (which is my interpretation
   of "Mittheilungen"); it seems to be clear that /both/ happened, from
   the records of what happened in the sections (p. 32 to 55):
   lectures; handouts of new maps and other documents; presentations of
   medical case studies etc.
9. On the evening of the third day, the "sections" gathered again; it
   was noted that more rooms were provided, and some rooms were cleared
   more, to allow for more space. (p. 24)
10. At the end of the event, suggestions for a follow-up event were
    presented and there was a vote (p. 24)
11. On the last day, a specific interpretation (!) of of the statues was
    discussed and won a majority: the event organizer was to decide,
    together with the members of the respective sections which lectures
    were "suitable" for the large, daily public gatherings; but also,
    nobody should be stopped from from giving their lecture during the
    large, daily public gatherings.

My personal interpretation: in various places, it is mentioned that a
lot of interaction took place in the breaks, and during the excursions.
The extensive reports on the gatherings of the "sections" (as mentioned
under 8.) make these gatherings look quite like predecessors of
"barcamps" (everybody brings and shares something, and participates);
however, the lists of documents and materials handed out and/or shown
make it clear that most of what was shared must have been "prepared at
home".

Cheers,
Rolf

Bhavesh Patel via OSList wrote on 28.06.23 07:14:

Dear Rolf,

thanks for the thorough research.
I enjoyed reading your notes.

Looking at your personal interpetration, my brain immediately focused on
"a lot of interaction took place in the breaks".
It is this interaction in selforganized smaller groups that HO noticed
at the traditional "conferences" that the OT (Organisational
Transformation) gang had once a year.
The "coffee breaks"  were alive, intense, folks laughed, etc... in stark
contrast to the planned part of the conference.
Thus, he came up with an approach that had "coffee breaks" at its
center.  Adding stuff like  circle and the Market Place open space began
to unfold... and evolved into OST which is still unfolding...

Hope you can come to the WOSonOS in Berlin in October not far away from
the Humboldt University that was founded in 1810...

Greetings from Berlin
mmp

Am 09.08.2023 um 20:38 schrieb Rolf F. Katzenberger via OSList:

Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
+49 30 7728000mmpannwitz@posteo.de